I can't believe that you mentioned "24" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in the same breath!! Buffy is clearly the winner when it comes nuance if only because the acting on that show was supreme. Jack and his good vs evil while I have to dabble in evil to accomplish good may be nuanced but pulease! The actors, other than Keifer are cardboard cutouts of people. I had to quit watching after season 3.

First off, let me just say that I love 24 more than the next guy. Given that I live in blue to purple Minnesota, I love 24 more than most next guys, but I can't claim for a second that there is any subtle moral distinction or nuanced insight to be found. There is a venner of obnoxious Hollywood PC inserted to placate CAIR and the handfull of liberals that watch and that is it. 24 asks the question; if a bunch of raggedy ass terrorists threaten the good old USA can we hook their privates up to a Diehard, shoot 'em between the eyes, lop off their heads and use the severed noggins as bargaining chips with other raggedy ass terrorists. The answer, as my daughters would say, is "well duh...." Greatest show in the world, yup. Better than Buffy, not really.

Terri, welcome to ThreeSources! I am a huge Buffy fan and, although we have Firefly/Serenity fans, I'm in a minority around here.

I started this, fully suspecting it would end in an all out flamewar. I had just started watching 24 this season and wondered if there were subtleties and layered meanings that I was missing (I didn't even get Sen. Kerry's "If you're stupid you go to Iraq" joke).

Twenty-four is fun for its high octane pacing and unapologetic patriotism, but I find I still watch Buffies, read the lit-crit about them, and catch new nuances after more than a dozen viewings. I cannot say -- and have heard nobody really claim -- that there is that depth in 24.

Well, I clearly don't have the "Buffy appreciation" gene. I got Season One on DVD for Christmas a year ago and watched the whole thing. I had no urge to get Season Two.

JK says he is "not going to be coerced to aid a terrorist plot" but do you believe the frightened father fully realized the implications of "delivering a package" for the arabic kid across the street? Being forced to do so at gunpoint would certainly tip me off but c'mon, he's not supposed to know he's in a TV drama about terrorists blowing up America.

And objecting to this scenario as "unrealistic" makes me wonder what I, in turn, am supposed to think about vampires.

Is 24 as good as Firefly? Yes. But 24 is put together with a wide angle lens where Firefly, like Buffy, is a close up, individual story. They both make the viewer think and I, personally, can imagine myself in any of their situations.

Maybe it's the same kind of difference as that between science fiction and science fantasy that dagny and I continually debate.

The important idea though from the article I posted is this (seventh paragraph):

"But it is not merely a question of choosing between family and a greater good; or--in other contexts that crop up repeatedly on the show--between civil liberties and national security; or between torture and human rights. It is a failing of our politics that these kinds of questions, in the real world, are presented by both sides as either easy to answer or unnecessary to choose between--or both."

I did not know of your efforts. It is very difficult to develop Buffy appreciation by watching Season One. A couple of episodes are good (The Pack and Nightmares) but there are no standout episodes, and the show does not really find its groove until later. Better to start in the middle and find your way back.

You do like Firefly. I compare Capt. Reynolds to Jack Bauer and find our beloved CTU agent comes up lacking. They both have beliefs (and I'd say both have a warning about discussions our government does not have). Mal is a deeply complex figure: tough as nails, stalwart in his beliefs, yet a mixture of real and fake bravado that is endearing.

Getting into later Buffy and Angel episodes, you see Joss Whedon's chops develop to where he could do Firefly. In Buffy/Angel, he had twelve seasons to craft a coherent, consistent universe.

On the scene. Wait a minute, pard'ner. In a week of terrorist acts, my friendly , neighborhood, MidEastern teenage neighbor holds my family at gunpoint, my son informs me that he has killed one of my other neighbors. I am forced to run an errand where I give A SUITCASE OF CASH to a man who says it's "not enough money." So I kill the guy with my bare hands (I guess my ATM card is in my green pair of pants) and I drive out to deliver it to another MidEastern-lookin'-fella. All during a state of heightened alert.

Am I delivering the latest Abba video? A pack of JuJu-Bees? (Infidel-Infidel-Bees). That is pretty hard for me to believe. The vampires, magic, and demons are allegorical in Buffy -- it is less a matter of believing as interpreting.

And I want it noted that our beloved Randian blog brother is lobbying for "the greater good." What planet did I wake up on?

:)