June 16, 2009If You Have To Ask...Bret Stephens in the WSJ: On the one hand we have democratically elected Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, reputed hardliner, who on Sunday abandoned his own long-held position and, to the immense disappointment of much of his political base, spoke of his willingness to accept a Palestinian state -- provided only that the Palestinians forswear military pursuits, resettle Palestinian refugees in their own territory, and recognize Israel as a Jewish state, just as the U.N. did at the country's founding. I guess we all know the answer. The whole Stephens piece is great. Someday a future president may have to apologize to Iranians for Mr. Obama's nonfeasance, just as Mr. Obama apologized for the Eisenhower administration's meddling. But the better Eisenhower parallel is with Hungary in 1956. Then as now a popular uprising coalesced around a figure (Imre Nagy in Hungary; Mir Hossein Mousavi in Iran), who had once been a creature of the system. Then as now it was buoyed by inspiring American rhetoric about freedom and democracy coming over Voice of America airwaves.Iran Posted by John Kranz at June 16, 2009 11:24 AM |
I was probably not the first to suggest this (and a Google check just now shows it), but I said to a friend after the election results that all we need is Jimmy Carter to certify them. What could be better with the upcoming 30th anniversary?
He can have a great photo-op, shaking Madman Mahmoud's hand and apologizing that we were ever there. We forced the Iranians to kidnap our citizens, you know.
Posted by: Perry Eidelbus at June 16, 2009 11:44 AMEh, I dunno jk. What kind of "heavy" could Obama use? At this point, great statements of condemnation are a service to Ahmadinejad. Remember that Ahmadinejad did win this election, and that he would have done so even if the numbers had not been played with to give him a larger mandate. Most of rural Iran is behind him. Only in the big cities are you seeing this kind of rioting, and even there the populace is divided.
So what could Obama say? Iranians already think America is a meddling Imperial power; what statement of Obama's would not be rhetorical loaded gun to use against the opposition?
Posted by: T. Greer at June 16, 2009 12:40 PMWhat could Obama say? This comes to mind:
"I urge the Polish Government and its allies to consider the consequences of their actions. How can they possibly justify using naked force to crush a people who ask for nothing more than the right to lead their own lives in freedom and dignity? Brute force may intimidate, but it cannot form the basis of an enduring society, and the ailing Polish economy cannot be rebuilt with terror tactics."
Not original - I've seen Mr. Reagan's words quoted on three different sites already this morning.
Posted by: Keith at June 16, 2009 1:13 PM...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1
We've had our disagreements in the past, tg, but this is part of my core principles. The blog is named for a quote from Natan Sharansky.
Sharansky and Solzhenitsyn both talk of the spiritual uplift they felt in the Gulags when they heard of American support. Sharansky did not think that the tanks would roll into Moscow and free all the dissidents, but he heard Reagan's words and felt that solidarity. Felt hope.
I am not talking about PR value here. Let's not take a focus group of Persian dissidents and poll-test some power terms. Let us stand with those who seek freedom from brutal tyranny and forced religion. Let us stand with those who would change a "fear society" into a "free society."
On the other side of the equation why can't we stand with democratic, pluralist, free Israel against those who would annihilate her? The faculty lounges and BBC editorial offices will shudder but the rest of us will enjoy "the power of the solidarity of the free world."
Posted by: jk at June 16, 2009 1:20 PMWell, let me ask you this: who is the target audience? Who is Obama supposed to be speaking to?
The way I see it (I am over simplifying things by necessity), there are three types of people in Iran right now. You have those folks wearing green in the streets and causing all this ruckus, you have those folks who support the regime with all they have, and you have the folks who remain undecided about what should be done.
Most of the populace falls under that last group. It is this group that is most important- the victor of the struggle between fear and freedom will be the side that can convince these undecided bystanders to take up arms for their side.
The need for impetus lies on the side of the protestors; most Iranians were content with Ahmedinhijad, and would be fine with him as President now. Those who join the swelling ranks of protestors do so because they have been shocked by how heavy-handed the Iranian government has been in this whole affair; each bout of oppression digs the grave of the regime all the deeper. Today's announcement that the Guardian Council will recount the votes is an implicit recognition of this reality; the regime is desperately trying to ensure that the undecided’s stay that way.
Thus, if it is "Boston Commons" that you want, our first concern is to get those undecided folks on the side of freedom.
My fear is that any moral attack made upon by Obama will tip the scales further onto the side of fear.
We have to remember that Iran is not Eastern Europe. When Reagan made the statement Keith quotes above, he was talking to a people subject to Soviet Imperial domination. The Communist state was not reviled simply because it was statist; communist rule was synonymous with a lack of sovereignty and foreign control.
In Iran, this dynamic is missing. There, it is the West - America and the other Western democracies - that are seen as the empires. For too many Iranians moral declarations and statements of solidarity are simply signs that America is trying to subvert Iranian sovereignty.
So yes, giving hope to dissidents is nice - even essential, in many cases. However, if the cost of providing hope is the destruction of a movement towards freedom, count me out.
Posted by: T. Greer at June 16, 2009 2:26 PMT. Greer: I have never been in Iran, so I can't say with any certainty whether what you're saying is right or wrong. But I've been in Iraq, and I can say with some confidence that there were many naysayers who warned that Americans were viewed as imperialists, and I found them to be dead wrong. We Americans were very much welcomed.
I have also never been to China, but in the summer of 1989, I was in Berkeley visiting my alma mater (yeah, I know what you're thinking. Deep behind enemy lines.), and happened upon two dozen Chinese students huddled around a television in the math building. They were watching the unfolding drama in Tienanmen Square and elsewhere (before the media blackout was imposed). They were cheering for their countrymen. After the end of those events, it was widely lamented that had the members of the uprising had more access to knowledge that Americans and the world were seeing the events, they could have held out longer. Believe it or not, their biggest source of encouragement for a while was fax machines - sending them messages that their struggle was being watched. Only after encouragement from over here was cut off did it collapse.
I believe it was John Adams who said that America was to be the friend of liberty everywhere, but the guarantor solely of her own. I find a lot of wisdom in that, and if might be somehow wrong for us as a nation, before the watching world, to speak for the right of Iranians to freely choose their leaders, it would be less wrong than the Prezznit pulling an Eisenhower and voting "present" on the subject.
Posted by: Keith at June 16, 2009 3:50 PMTG; JK (if that's his real name) and I have a mutual friend from Iran. I also have a cousin who is married to an Iranian. Though I have not spoken to them about this particular issue, I think both would strongly disagree with your assertions. My friend has told me in the past that the majority of Iranians do not support the theocracy and are generally pro-American, or at least not anti-American. He believes that the people will throw off the mullahs sooner or later. As JK and Keith so eloquently detailed, America's voice or silence has had profound impacts in the past.
I would also remind that during our own revolution, about 1/3 of the colonial citizens were Tories loyal to the Crown, 1/3 were American patriots and 1/3 didn't care. You don't need a majority to seek freedom. In fact, most people "don't want to get involved" and it is the courageous few who make things happen. The undecideds never decided anything.
Posted by: Boulder Refugee at June 16, 2009 5:34 PMI cannot say I like discussing the "target audience." I made sport of poll-testing responses and here we are -- "how is freedom playing this week in the 18-25 male demo?"
If you require a target audience for speaking up for freedom, I will offer:
1) The protesters in the street who are choosing to actually put their lives on the line for a chance at self-government. This is not a metaphoric hollywood-makes-the-3,856th-movie-about-McCarthyism courage, this is real, Gandhi and Selma courage. It deserves affirmation and approbation.
2) All the other tin-pot dictators around the world who believe they can host a phony election and then club to death any citizens who complain.
3) The heirs of Sharansky and Solzhenitsyn who rot in jail cells in Cuba, Burma, Venezuela and yearn to feel "the power of the solidarity of the free world."
When this blog was started, Freedom was on the march. We watched the Orange Revolution, the Cedar Revolution, purple-inked fingers of voters in Iraqw and Afghanistan. We had "Whiskey, Democracy, Sexy" and protest babes and one could almost tyranny was dying out. A bit naive, but compared to a US President who just sits and waits for things to die down before he meets with Ahmadinejad, I find myself missing 2005.
Posted by: jk at June 16, 2009 9:46 PMWhew. I have a lot to respond to (and not much time), so forgive me if I sound more terse than usual.
I do not have any friends from Iran. I do however have a friendly acquaintance with an exchange student from Venezuela, who I have talked politics with a couple of times. She informs me that everybody she knows hates Chavez, and that he has very little popular support.
These claims, be they about Venezuela, China, or Iran, remind me of Arthur Miller’s lament in 2004, “‘How can the polls be neck and neck when I don’t know one Bush supporter?’
They are cases of anecdotal evidence, and when extrapolated to a nation as a whole rarely hold true. In the VZ case, both the recent (popularly decided) Venezuelan constitutional revisions and public opinion poll results lead to the conclusion that there are plenty of Venezuelans who love Chavez.
While I may be overstepping my authority, I think a similar dynamic can be seen in Iran. George Friedman stated much of my thoughts on the 15th:
” Americans and Europeans have been misreading Iran for 30 years. Even after the shah fell, the myth has survived that a mass movement of people exists demanding liberalization — a movement that if encouraged by the West eventually would form a majority and rule the country. We call this outlook “iPod liberalism,” the idea that anyone who listens to rock ‘n’ roll on an iPod, writes blogs and knows what it means to Twitter must be an enthusiastic supporter of Western liberalism. Even more significantly, this outlook fails to recognize that iPod owners represent a small minority in Iran — a country that is poor, pious and content on the whole with the revolution forged 30 years ago.
There are undoubtedly people who want to liberalize the Iranian regime. They are to be found among the professional classes in Tehran, as well as among students. Many speak English, making them accessible to the touring journalists, diplomats and intelligence people who pass through. They are the ones who can speak to Westerners, and they are the ones willing to speak to Westerners. And these people give Westerners a wildly distorted view of Iran. They can create the impression that a fantastic liberalization is at hand — but not when you realize that iPod-owning Anglophones are not exactly the majority in Iran.”
He exaggerates the point a bit, but he is right. The majority of Iranians – the rural base that supports Ahmadinejad – are fine with the regime. That most statisticians who have crunched the numbers think Ahmadinejad won the election despite Khomeni’s fudging of the totals is a testament to this. That these great protests and riots are only happening in a few of Iran’s larger cities is a testament to this. There is no reason to believe that the silent majority is ready to jump into the streets and overthrow the government.
[As an aside, before I move onto other points: BR is correct with his Am. Revolution proportions. However, matters are quite a bit more complex than this- I am reminded of Joseph Ellis’ wonderful book, American Creation and his chapter on the winter GW and co. spent in Valley Forge. Ellis remarks how strange it was for American troops to be starving in what was then the most agriculturally productive area in the colonies, and further outlines how Washington was able to turn the tactical and logistical nightmares of working in the region to his benefit. Ellis notes that the key to Washington’s success was wooing over and providing security for the farmers and merchants who lived in the region, the undecided folk who called themselves neither Loyalist nor Patriot. Without gaming their support, GW’s campaign would have dissolved. The undecided’s can decide a lot.]
Thus we are left back where we started. What can the West do to help the anti-regime movement grow?
I remained unconvinced that an American statement of unequivocal support for the protestors would do any good.
To be sure, most Iranians are not anti-American. But then again, most people in the Middle East are not. I am reminded of Michael Totten’s piece for Commentary magazine, where he questions a HuffPo writer’s assertion that Syria is not “a hotbed of anti-Americanism” because of the Syrian people’s personal warmth towards herself and other American tourists. No, one can feel fine towards Americans and still view America as a bullying, self-interested, imperializing power.
That the Iranian government has already started to blame America for “meddling” reinforces this point. The best the Iranians have is “The Swiss say the Americans say”, but they are running with it anyway. That is the thing I think a few of you around here seem to miss. Third world leaders do not blame problems on America because they cannot think of a better excuse- they blame problems on America because it works. The narrative of the evil America is a potent and credible one. How much more potent and credible would it be if Obama had undeniably been interjecting America into an Iranian crisis?
Jk, there is always a target audience. Reagan always knew who is target audience was and how his words would be interpreted by them- it is why he is called the Great Communicator. This is not useless PR spin. Grandiose speeches are fine and all, but if they hurt the cause of liberty more than they help it, then they are not worth it.
I have already outlined the some of the bad affects of such statements. You have proposed some good ones. Here are the problems I have with accepting your case:
1. Nothing Obama could say would be credible. You talk about tin pot dictators- do we include Egypt and Saudi in this group as well? We have clashed on this issue before, and I hate to drag you into it again, but it matters. America cannot be seen as anything but a meddling bully when she pulls a fit over the Grand Council’s harsh tactics but does not condemn those of Mubarak, or when she supports the election of Musuavi but will not do the same for Hamas. To those in the Middle East –those tin pot dictators and those on the Arab/Persian street – American statements of moral absolutes ring hollow; “speaking up for freedom” is seen as speaking up for American interests. And you know, I can’t blame them! We are awful selective in our support for freedom. Why should they think that we are standing up for freedom, instead of trying to destabilize a regional annoyance? What statement could Obama give to dispel this illusion?
Posted by: T. Greer at June 17, 2009 3:10 PMI agree. President Obama could not make a believable convincing case for freedom because he neither believes in it nor has convinced himself.
I'll add another argument to your side. President Obama could do a lot of damage by making a forceful speech from which the dissidents infer a greater level of support than exists. Then you have a "GHWB-Shia uprising style" scenario that is bound to end badly.
But I wish, tg, that the White House were occupied by somebody who believes in the power of freedom. A Ronald Reagan or a (boo, hiss!) George W Bush would have naturally played this as an opportunity, which I think it is. See if Persia can find her Washington (though not that guy from 300).
My Yahoo/AP headlines said it all the other day:
-- Thousands protest Iranian elections, 15 slain
-- President Goes to Capitol Hill to push Healthcare plan.
AP later backed off the 15 figure, but the juxtaposition spoke volumes. No, I won't coach the President on what to say. I just regret we have a President who "took the 3:00 AM phone call and voted 'Present.'"
I continue to reject your poll references. If a thousand Iranian dissidents seek freedom from tyranny, I will proudly if metaphorically stand at their side. And I wish the President felt the same.
Posted by: jk at June 17, 2009 4:11 PMOver at Shadow Government, Christian Brose wrote up a nice post as to what Obama should be doing for Iran.
Just so you folks don't get think I believe we should be doing nothing.
Posted by: T. Greer at June 18, 2009 11:49 AMTG, I know you are anxious to get on with your life and I hesitate to drag this out further. But I will, of course.
What did you think I asked for that was beyond what Brose asks for? I wanted something beyond "will you kids knock it off! Daddy's got a Health Care Overhaul to finish!"
Had the President done half of what Brose suggests, I would be pleased:
I objected because the President did nothing. If Brose's suggestions have your support than we have no argument after all. Another ThreeSources Kumbaya Moment... Posted by: jk at June 18, 2009 12:17 PM
JK-
Perhaps this is where the difference between what has been advocate here (see Reagan quote) and what Brose is advocating can be found in his opening sentence:
It is a fine line, I will admit. I think the difference between us might just be how willing we are to draw close to it. I am sure you would say that if you err, you would rather err in favor of liberty. While I would agree to this sentiment in most all other cases, I tend to think that here, erring on the side of liberty and Iranian backlash is one and the same.
Posted by: T. Greer at June 19, 2009 11:25 PM | What do you think? [13]