November 21, 2008
We Won.
A group is promoting tomorrow, 11-22, as V-I Day to celebrate a US Victory in Iraq.
I haven't wanted to step too far on the sunny side of a fragile situation but today I am ready to claim victory. A prescient pundit (Jay Nordlinger? Mark Steyn?) said -- way back when -- that if we do well in Iraq, we can look forward to their protesting against us, that a free country that hates America was a sign of success. Well.
Yahoo/APBAGHDAD – Thousands of followers of a radical Shiite cleric protested a proposed U.S.-Iraqi security deal Friday, burning an effigy of President George W. Bush in the same square where Iraqis beat a toppled Saddam Hussein statue five years ago.
Chanting and waving flags, Muqtada al-Sadr's followers filled Firdous Square to protest the pact that would allow American troops to stay for three more years.
I saw video of shouting and pushing in the Iraqi Parliament yesterday. Folks in suits and nice haircuts were throwing stacks of paper. This blog is named for Natan Sharansky's book that bifurcates between fear societies and free societies. There have been a million mistakes in Iraq, and I am sympathetic to an informed and reasoned suggestion that we should never have gone in. But we have flipped a fear society to a free society -- and I will never apologize for that. Freedom on the March Posted by John Kranz at November 21, 2008 11:16 AM
In pre-Saddam Iraq, people would have burned effigies of American presidents. So is there really a difference?
Actually, yes. Under Saddam, people would have been "encouraged" to burn the effigies, if they didn't want their fathers chopped alive and their daughters raped. Today, they have the freedom to burn effigies, or refrain from, if they want.
Posted by: Perry Eidelbus at November 21, 2008 12:52 PM"But we have flipped a fear society to a free society -- and I will never apologize for that."
Agreed wholeheartedly. I had the privilege of being on the ground in Iraq - mostly in the area of Erbil in the Kurdish reason - in April, 2004; Iraqi Kurdistan may well be the ideal example of Sharansky's fear society/free society model. Before the ouster of the madman Saddam, this region was on the receiving end of governance by imposed terror; after his ouster, the Kurds were joyously hungry to learn about American-style democracy, and free to argue about it publicly (and believe me, they did!).
Look at their elections. Before his ouster, Saddam received over 99% of the votes of the populace - and Allah help you if you voted against him. That's a fear society. After Saddam: not so much unanimity on the candidates, but they were all fashionable in purple ink, weren't they? That's a free society.
Posted by: Keith at November 21, 2008 1:38 PMI would be careful here. I agree with the general sentiment of the post, but there are too many flashpoints to call it a day. The government's refusal to incorporate the Sons of Iraq into the ISF is particularly worrying.
On the other hand, I think Harry "The war is lost" Reid must be feeling pretty silly right now.
~T. Greer, part-time, amateur, almost consistent Iraq watcher.
Posted by: T. Greer at November 21, 2008 2:02 PMTG: Don't make the mistake of thinking that Harry Reid has a sense of shame.
Posted by: Boulder Refugee at November 21, 2008 2:23 PMI don't mean that things can't/won't go bad in Mesopotamia (now he thinks he writes for the NYTImes) but I'll whisper "Mission Accomplished." Bad stuff may happen, but Hussein has been deposed and disposed, and we have left a free society that yells at each other in Parliament about sovereignty.
Their legislators behave badly and the people protest about George Bush. One almost gets homesick.
Posted by: jk at November 21, 2008 3:11 PMAm I the only one who looks forward to the day when Iraqi (and other) "followers of a radical Shiite cleric" gather in the streets to burn an effigy of President Barack H. Obama?
Posted by: johngalt at November 21, 2008 3:54 PMjohngalt: that day can't come soon enough - and with him already being branded a "house Negro" by one of their number, that day will arrive rapidly. The real question is what Obama will do about it when it happens.
I dread the day that these same people decide we're weak and spineless enough to make their next attack on American soil. We could run an office pool on when and where that will happen. I wonder if his fanatical groupies will figure out he's not who they thought he was before that day comes.
Posted by: Keith at November 21, 2008 5:17 PMBut those people yelling in parliament can take up guns very quickly... heck, most of them were terrorists (or something close to it) before they got elected.
The problem comes when the factions cannot settle their disputes by means of yelling at each other. Once that happens, it is all too easy to pick your guns back up...
I also do not think it is fear of U.S. retaliation that has kept terrorists from attacking America. Honestly, we can act spineless or stoic- those bent on reaping terror will do so if they can. To imagine otherwise is to lull yourself into a false sense of security.
~T. Greer, nitpickingly pointing out that the "house negro" statement came from Zalwahiri, al-Qaeda's 2nd in command- quite different from the Mahdi mob burning Bush's effigies.
Posted by: T. Greer at November 21, 2008 7:55 PMAnd the Germans could descend into Socialism -- no, wait a minute -- but that does not nullify their liberation from fascism.
I'm thinking that we have provided Benjamin Franklin’s famous "Republic if you can keep it." Sure it could go bad but its present signs are extremely encouraging.
I hope you're right that our promised future spinelessness will be without cost. Closing up Gitmo, sending terrorists home, pulling out of Iraq on a domestic political schedule and treating future attacks with law enforcement and not military response might scare the hummus out of our enemies but it seems counter-intuitive.
Posted by: jk at November 22, 2008 11:57 AMjk, I don't know if I can buy that argument. After all, couldn't have Bush said the same thing back in 2003 when Saddam was ousted? We did liberate the Iraqis from the Baathists- surely the next five years of violence were just the Iraqis failing to "keep" their society free?
Honestly, I have problems seeing where the cost of our spinelessness comes in. Your average terrorist is a fanatic. He expects to die for his cause. Gitmo is nothing but a source of anger for him. The supposed toughness of America really is an irrelevant factor.
Let me put it this way- did Al Qaeda decide to launch a terrorist attack in 2001 because we elected a Texas wussie?
I will qualify this by saying that withdrawing from Iraq is a bit different than the other examples you mention- like the videos of roadside bombs, footage of American troops withdrawing from Iraq could help the terrorists by letting them claim that they won. However, I think the link between Domestic treatment of terrorists and number of terrorists committed to harming the U.S. is small.
~T. Greer
Posted by: T. Greer at November 22, 2008 8:21 PM"The supposed toughness of America really is an irrelevant factor."
I'll argue with that one. The "average" terrorist may be a fanatic but far fewer of them will sign on with a group that is clearly getting its ass kicked around the world by a determined adversary. Volunteering to be a Jihadi Joe was far more attractive when the biggest threats to your existence were UN resolutions, occasional rocket explosions at the neighborhood milk factory, and the very real possibility of jail time should you be unlucky enough to get arrested while visiting New York City.
Posted by: johngalt at November 22, 2008 8:56 PM@JG: Someone who chooses to hijack an airplane and ram it into a building is prepared to die. I have a hard time believing that such a man really cares if his failure to kill himself will result in CIA torture or jail time.
Of course, there is a difference between destroying terrorist groups and their affiliates across the world and increasing the level of punishment the odd terrorist receives if he is unsuccessful.
One works and one doesn't.
Posted by: T. Greer at November 22, 2008 9:28 PM | What do you think? [12]