A Case for Obama
I'm calling blog admin privilege and promoting this comment to a post. "The Heretic" answers Dagny's question of why her [Dagny's] friends and neighbors are voting for Senator Obama:
First off let me digress say that I am with this group when it comes to major economic policies -- especially elimination of Corporate and Personal Income Taxes. BR and I were exchanging e-mail the other day about a pipe-dream: Taxes based solely on consumption. I happen to know a state where it works, namely Dubai. Of course we can debate about civil liberties etc. but that is not the point.
Having said that, as much as Economic policies is at the top of everyone’s mind at the moment, First and foremost I believe that Foreign Policy will and should be the top issue. I believe that Pakistan becoming a failed state and the resulting consequences in Afghanistan is a very real possibility in the next Presidents tenure. What will complicate issues is a economically assertive China (the banker of the US), a politically resurgent and saber rattling Russia and Iran's influence in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. McCain other than name dropping hasn't even mentioned Afghanistan. He continues to insist that Iraq is the central battleground in the war on terror while al-Qaeda wasn’t even in Iraq until months after the US invasion. The real battle in Iraq is the Shia-Sunni conflict and the battle with al-Sadar’s Mahdi army, which McCain refuses to acknowledge. This wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time has significantly reduced not only our ability to take the war to the enemy’s home turf but also alienated many of our NATO allies -- who BTW we need to neutralize Russia. (We can debate McCain’s position on the NATO at another time). In the meantime, bin-Laden and the Taliban have had a chance to regroup in southern Afghanistan/Northern Pakistan enough to pose a threat to the Pakistani establishment itself. I am sure most commentators on this blog will disagree, but Biden is right on this topic.
Secondly, as a first generation immigrant, I grew up looking at the US as the beacon of freedom, be it personal and civil liberties or economic progress. In the 12 +/- years (which is all my adult life) I have lived here, I have seen us lose a lot of the moral fortitude be it gay rights or a woman’s right to choose. Debate over these issues is beyond the scope of what you have asked me.
Thirdly, I cannot in good conscience cast my vote for a lifetime member of the NRA, when every time I read about another shooting in yet another school, my stomach sinks in the thought what of a few years down the lane if my kid is the victim.
Fourth, on economic policies, I neither agree with McCain nor do I agree with Obama. However, I see hope in the fact that just like Bill Clinton, once the political rhetoric of an election settles, Obama will implement what is right for the country rather than sticking to a pre-election political agenda. On this note, I do hope while Obama wins the White House, the Democrats do not have absolute control over Congress. I would like to see the checks and balance built into the system work.
Last but not the least, you could argue that McCain in quite capable of adapting his positions to the circumstances and has gained a lot of political experiences over the years. And I am certain your arguments would be well founded. However, what scares me is the fact is Palin being a “heartbeat away from Presidency”. This notion with McCain is more real than with any other candidate I have known given his health problems. Negotiating with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia or President Zardari of Pakistan or containing Prime Minister Putin of Russia or President Ahmedinejad of Iran is not the same as driving kids to soccer practice. She is vindictive and naive. It would be irresponsible of me to vote for her under the current circumstances.
You could argue Obama's inexperience. But he is not naive nor is he vindictive. He is a very level headed person. Further, the ticket includes the foriegn policy expertise of Biden. Hence has my support.
2008
Posted by jk at October 5, 2008 11:12 AM
Your post is reasonable and well put, Heretic. Consumption taxes and concern for the yield curve, you are quickly becoming one of my favorite Obama voters (discounting some of my many misguided relatives...)
I'll go first not as privilege, but blogging Sunday at 9am Mountain Time:
Neither of us seems to have an innate trust of our candidate's economic policies. I will agree on the importance -- in 2008 -- of foreign policy and am far more comfortable with McCain. All the concerns you cite are real and all lead me to prefer a more muscular stance. It is not based on experience, it is based on worldview.
I am rethinking my devotion to the "National Greatness Conservatism" that describes Senator McCain, but I am not rethinking the idea of American Exceptionalism at its heart. No other nation has the strength or the stomach to stand up for freedom in the frightening world you describe. I listen to Senator Obama or Sen. Kerry before him or VP Gore before him and it is clear that they would treat terrorism as a law enforcement and not a military matter.
Senator Obama's impulse to draw equivalence between Russia and Georgia is painfully instructive. His first impulse was to make a deal between the aggressor and the invaded State -- a little Rodney King Diplomacy: "Can't we all get along?" McCain recognized Russian aggression for what it was.
In a hostile world, weakness invites conflict and appeasement never provides lasting peace. McCain was right about Russia and McCain was right about Iraq. The battle is not between Shia-and Sunni, the battle is between those that would protect democracy and rule of law, and those that would send the whole country "back to the caves." The former are at the ascendancy and a President McCain would give them the support to triumph.
I would rather attempt a Counterinsurgency strategy in Afghanistan as a victor in Iraq than after an ignominious retreat. None of the COIN strategies would work after Afghanis (and al-Qaeda) watched us abandon those who supported us in Iraq.
Your second point (are you a computer science guy? You kind of slipped in a 'zero.') is beloved by all Democrats but doesn't wash for me. People still line up for all of the far too scarce visas and legal immigration opportunities -- then jump the fence and sneak in when those chances fail.
Senator O made the impassioned close that the beloved America to which his Kenyan father sought to emigrate has been tarnished. Was that "Ozzie and Harriet" ideal that your folks cling to ruined by Loving v. Virginia which would allow him to marry Barack's white mother in any state, or the Voting Rights Act? America's loss of esteem is limited to the faculty lounges and executive offices of the BBC. The NATO allies President Bush pushed away elected a string of Atlanticist, pro-American leaders.
Three -- hoo boy! -- my NRA membership has lapsed, I should leave this to one of our lifetime members (every one but me). But the Second Amendment states that I am ultimately responsible for the protection of my life, liberty and property -- not the government. It is a matter of liberty to me. But by liberty or by efficacy, gun laws have been complete failures by any measure. I will also point out, just to yank your chain, that neither of your candidates will risk the political fallout of promoting their anti-gun beliefs. When I tell an Obama supporter they are anti-gun I am challenged: "They never said that!" "You can't prove that!" Gosh, TH, you sure you can vote for those two gun nuts, Obama and Biden?
Fourth, you don't agree with Obama's core economic positions, but you think he'll be fine once he gets in office. I wish I had your confidence about your guy or mine. All of Obama's speeches, votes and actions have promoted wealth redistribution, I am pretty clear he will do as much of that as he can get away with. And, Mister Checks-and-Balances, he will get away with A LOT in a Democratic House-Senate-Executive sweep.
I almost get the feeling you don't care for Governor Palin (I'm a subtle, nuanced guy). She remains the only one out of the four whom I do trust that her fundamental economic impulse is to curb government and expand freedom. The other three have loads of experience expanding government and taking liberty away. Her shorter tenure has shown a lot more state-modesty.
I do respect your views and very much enjoy your comments -- please do not confuse my zeal with harshness or dislike. I will end on the warm fuzzy that Senator Obama has indeed shown himself to be bright and level headed. He is way too fond of government intrusion for my taste, but we abandoned constitutional limits long before I was born. If he is what the people choose, our Republic, if not all its remaining liberties, will survive.
How's that for an endorsement? Obama-Biden: we might survive!
Your post is reasonable and well put, Heretic. Consumption taxes and concern for the yield curve, you are quickly becoming one of my favorite Obama voters (discounting some of my many misguided relatives...)
I'll go first not as privilege, but blogging Sunday at 9am Mountain Time:
Neither of us seems to have an innate trust of our candidate's economic policies. I will agree on the importance -- in 2008 -- of foreign policy and am far more comfortable with McCain. All the concerns you cite are real and all lead me to prefer a more muscular stance. It is not based on experience, it is based on worldview.
I am rethinking my devotion to the "National Greatness Conservatism" that describes Senator McCain, but I am not rethinking the idea of American Exceptionalism at its heart. No other nation has the strength or the stomach to stand up for freedom in the frightening world you describe. I listen to Senator Obama or Sen. Kerry before him or VP Gore before him and it is clear that they would treat terrorism as a law enforcement and not a military matter.
Senator Obama's impulse to draw equivalence between Russia and Georgia is painfully instructive. His first impulse was to make a deal between the aggressor and the invaded State -- a little Rodney King Diplomacy: "Can't we all get along?" McCain recognized Russian aggression for what it was.
In a hostile world, weakness invites conflict and appeasement never provides lasting peace. McCain was right about Russia and McCain was right about Iraq. The battle is not between Shia-and Sunni, the battle is between those that would protect democracy and rule of law, and those that would send the whole country "back to the caves." The former are at the ascendancy and a President McCain would give them the support to triumph.
I would rather attempt a Counterinsurgency strategy in Afghanistan as a victor in Iraq than after an ignominious retreat. None of the COIN strategies would work after Afghanis (and al-Qaeda) watched us abandon those who supported us in Iraq.
Your second point (are you a computer science guy? You kind of slipped in a 'zero.') is beloved by all Democrats but doesn't wash for me. People still line up for all of the far too scarce visas and legal immigration opportunities -- then jump the fence and sneak in when those chances fail.
Senator O made the impassioned close that the beloved America to which his Kenyan father sought to emigrate has been tarnished. Was that "Ozzie and Harriet" ideal that your folks cling to ruined by Loving v. Virginia which would allow him to marry Barack's white mother in any state, or the Voting Rights Act? America's loss of esteem is limited to the faculty lounges and executive offices of the BBC. The NATO allies President Bush pushed away elected a string of Atlanticist, pro-American leaders.
Three -- hoo boy! -- my NRA membership has lapsed, I should leave this to one of our lifetime members (every one but me). But the Second Amendment states that I am ultimately responsible for the protection of my life, liberty and property -- not the government. It is a matter of liberty to me. But by liberty or by efficacy, gun laws have been complete failures by any measure. I will also point out, just to yank your chain, that neither of your candidates will risk the political fallout of promoting their anti-gun beliefs. When I tell an Obama supporter they are anti-gun I am challenged: "They never said that!" "You can't prove that!" Gosh, TH, you sure you can vote for those two gun nuts, Obama and Biden?
Fourth, you don't agree with Obama's core economic positions, but you think he'll be fine once he gets in office. I wish I had your confidence about your guy or mine. All of Obama's speeches, votes and actions have promoted wealth redistribution, I am pretty clear he will do as much of that as he can get away with. And, Mister Checks-and-Balances, he will get away with A LOT in a Democratic House-Senate-Executive sweep.
I almost get the feeling you don't care for Governor Palin (I'm a subtle, nuanced guy). She remains the only one out of the four whom I do trust that her fundamental economic impulse is to curb government and expand freedom. The other three have loads of experience expanding government and taking liberty away. Her shorter tenure has shown a lot more state-modesty.
I do respect your views and very much enjoy your comments -- please do not confuse my zeal with harshness or dislike. I will end on the warm fuzzy that Senator Obama has indeed shown himself to be bright and level headed. He is way too fond of government intrusion for my taste, but we abandoned constitutional limits long before I was born. If he is what the people choose, our Republic, if not all its remaining liberties, will survive.
How's that for an endorsement? Obama-Biden: we might survive!
Posted by: jk at October 5, 2008 12:27 PMGreat posts!
JK, you really got The Refugee with this statement:
"But the Second Amendment states that I am ultimately responsible for the protection of my life, liberty and property -- not the government."
That, in one succinct sentence, is the difference between a conservative and a liberal. Conservatives hold themselves accountable for their lot in life and liberals hold the government accountable for their lot in life.
The Refugee will also stipulate for the record that he is a Life Member of the NRA.
Posted by: Boulder Refugee at October 6, 2008 12:08 PMOther than saying "I disagree" I'll not address any of Heretic's points except the ones on economics, such as they are.
Since this very post is premised on dagny's question I think it only proper to be specific as to what that question was:
"I feel completely at a loss to understand how anyone can be in favor of the socialist policies of Obama and the democrats and yet about 47% of the country plans to vote for him. (...) Can anyone here tell me why?"
So it's not only "why would 47% of the country plan to vote for Obama" but how can that many Americans be in favor of his socialist policies?
If I read him right, Heretic's treatment of this aspect of Obama's candidacy is, "I am with this group when it comes to major economic policies" but "I see hope in the fact that ... Obama will implement what is right for the country rather than sticking to a pre-election political agenda."
Choosing once again not to comment on the obvious self-delusion that "maybe he'll do something other than what he says he'll do" I still don't see any clues here that satisfy dagny's curiosity.
It's the same way when I debate these issues with people I know who support Obama. They always shy away from defending socialist principles but they still think Obama is "what's right for the country."
Consider this: A recent Gallup Poll found that 84% of Americans preferred that government "fix the economy" by "taking steps to improve overall economic conditions and the jobs situation" while only 13% wanted to "take steps to distribute wealth more evenly among Americans." Even among Democrats, only 19% wanted redistribution of wealth. Nineteen percent!
So what is going on here? Only 13% of Americans KNOW that they want a socialist economic policy but 47% of them plan to VOTE for one. This means that roughly 1/3 of these voters DON'T KNOW that Obama's economic policies are socialist!
Either that or they can't tell the difference because nobody's ever offered them an economic policy that ISN'T socialist.
Posted by: johngalt at October 6, 2008 3:47 PM | What do you think? [3]